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The idea: Get the UN to get world leaders to agree on a moral philosophy.

Epistemic status: This is a somewhat rough idea. I know a decent bit about the fundamentals of game theory, namely in systems of power and warfare, but not nearly that much. I also don’t have a great internal model of the world; it’s roughly that of a person who reads the news occasionally. I also haven’t double-checked this idea that many times. We (or others) can most likely improve it. So far,

  1. One non-expert has given me feedback,
  2. one international relations expert, and
  3. Arturo Marcias (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/users/arturo-macias).

Preface: I’m mostly asking for feedback. I am also making this post so readers might implement of try to implement the idea. You, reading this right now: if you just want to know how to get this done, my suggestion would be to send this over to the UN or otherwise try to implement this specific idea.

Why this might be good: As I am sure you know, everyone makes decisions based on three things:

  1. The information they have,
  2. Their decision-making process (which is often assumed to be their values, such as in game theory, and when it comes to geopolitics, there’s much less human error than in day-to-day life, so it should roughly be their values. and divergence from that is human error.)
  3. Their options.

This is because when a person decides something, they use the information they have (1) and their decision-making process (2), and ONLY based on those things do they choose one of their options (3).

It’s abundantly clear why it would be good for world leaders to agree on what they value: said world leaders would always want the same thing, assuming they have the same or similar enough information and human error doesn’t get in the way.

Why this might work: Most people are aligned not with their goals at the moment, but rather with their goals overall. That’s phrased a bit weirdly, so I’ll expand on it: Someone might be a Democrat at one time, but they probably wouldn’t take a pill that made them always hold the opinions of a Democrat of that time.

  1. If this isn’t caused by human error, it must be caused by their values.
  2. If their values only cared about their opinions and beliefs at that time, then they would take the pill.
  3. Since they likely wouldn’t, their values must also care, in part, about their future opinions or beliefs.

In addition, most people wouldn’t take a pill that made them highly addicted to ice cubes.

  1. If this isn’t caused by human error, it must be caused by their values.
  2. If their values only care about satisfying whatever opinions and beliefs they have at the time, then they would take the pill since they could easily satisfy [the belief that they would hold, in the future] that eating ice cubes is extremely valuable by going to the fridge and grabbing a handful of ice cubes.
  3. Since they don’t eat the cube, they must not entirely only care about whatever opinions and beliefs they hold at the time.

IF a person wouldn’t take the pill in the first case, but would in the second, and IF it isn’t caused by human error, then statements 3 and 6 MUST be satisfied.

In order to satisfy statements 3 and 6, said person’s true values could be many things. Three very reasonable possibilities are:

  1. They value doing good, and their beliefs and opinions change as they think about them more. (e.g., someone might switch from acting like a nihilist to acting like a utilitarian since that better aligns with their values. They allow THIS change because they know that some reasonable process caused said change. If they thought they would start going crazy soon, they might go through steps to stop a change in their values since they wouldn’t trust the decision of a crazy person, even when the crazy person is them.)
  2. They care about making decisions based on logical reasoning and “reasonable” values. Valuing ice cubes so highly is not “reasonable”.
  3. More generally, they might have one overarching goal (for example, “doing good”), and they change their opinions and beliefs to better align with that goal.

This may be the case for very impactful people, and so any change to their values, when based on logical reasoning (and with THEIR consent, so they know that it meets THEIR goals (since I don’t think any of them are actually crazy, but I don’t know. If they are crazy, though, or if they often succumb to human error, they still would likely only change their values with THEIR consent.)), they would be welcome!

In addition, not only would world leaders end up with moral values that are more logical, but they would end up with moral values that many more important people agree with!

In addition, world leaders might hold off on major decisions since they know that, on average, they would make a more educated decision after their moral values improve and align with others.

Why this might not work/factors that might cause this to not be implemented/factors that might make this a bad idea:

One major issue is that the process might be too slow. Maybe it won’t be! I honestly don't know. Maybe there’s some study on how long it takes to change the mind of someone who sees their opinion as important, and that might be useful in determining how long this would take.

Another potential way this wouldn't work or be implemented is that many world leaders don’t match the reasonable assumptions behind [the reasoning as to why it might work].

Another one is that it might be very hard to convince everybody that it is important, especially if we define “important” more loosely, allowing more people to fit the description, ESPECIALLY if it needs cooperation from a large group, such as the citizens of a nation, especially if the moral values go against that group’s culture. Imagine you’re heavily a christian hearing that the UN decided that coveting one’s neighbor’s wife is really not that bad (and they mentioned that explicitly in a summary of the program report). Notably, many of these bigger groups are heavily influenced by smaller groups; Most unions have union leaders or union leader bodies, most armies have generals of differing ranks, most political groups have figureheads, most religions have priests or the equivalent of a priest, etc.

Now, presumably, since important people become more and less important over time, either due to them being elected, rising to power, resigning, dying, etc., this program would presumably continue throughout time (to get all the new world leaders and non-new world leaders to agree on a moral philosophy), or perhaps the UN would fully agree on one moral philosophy, or perhaps every few years world leaders and experts convene to decide if it should change, and if so, what it should change to. (This is one of the main ways this idea can be improved: “How should this be implemented long-term”?)

In addition, due to all the forces of corruption, people in power are disproportionately not morally aligned: someone who values being in office the longest would, on average, be in office longer than someone who wants to do good, and those who are willing to become more morally aligned would disproportionately be put at a disadvantage, since this program would be more likely to make them more moral, and thus in power for less time in comparison to those who were less willing to budge: A change from mostly moral to moral might be the straw that broke the camel’s back, causing them to be in power for much less time.

This can be counteracted by having some of these “forces of corruption” push towards being moral: moral world leaders might do better in a world filled with other moral world leaders than [immoral world leaders].

Furthermore, you don’t need to value staying in power to stay in power or try to. Suppose you’re a world leader with some moral values. In that case, you’d want to stay in power when the alternative is less moral than you.

In addition to THIS, one of the main reasons moral world leaders do seemingly immoral things is to fend off less moral world leaders from taking their power. This force would be drastically counteracted by [the UN and most world leaders agreeing on a moral philosophy that they act upon.].

IN ADDITION, a person in a position of power could act the same way as an immoral version of themselves, except for when being moral doesn't have a noticeable effect on how much power they have. (This is practically the bare minimum, namely since it would mean that a program like this would only have an effect in those edge-cases.)

One glaring flaw is that it would be extremely difficult to land on the correct moral philosophy. Philosophers have been trying for years, and there still isn’t a consensus! One counterargument to this is that it doesn’t need to be the RIGHT moral philosophy; it just has to be GOOD ENOUGH to be better than the current status quo, which is much less difficult.

One general note is that the UN sorta already has this: the UN charter. However, it isn’t enforced in this way, and major member states don’t abide by it, or otherwise didn’t in the past, such as Russia. They might want to apply the techniques proposed here, but not all of them would work if the final moral goal is set in stone: No-one can change it such that they agree with it, so if the charter doesn’t agree with their values, No amount of convincing will change their mind, unless you change their fundamental values (something pretty hard to do - imagine how much convincing I’d have to do to get you to stop doing good!)

If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

I likely forgot about some variables that can be changed to make this idea better, as well as variables that could effect whether or not this is a good idea, so please let me know if you spot any, or if you know what those variables are “equal to”. (that is, what should be adjusted, and what are the the real-world features that effect of this is a good or bad idea?)

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I will note that most change of this scale doesn’t arise from methods like this. This could aide in giving a rough sense of how likely this is to work. Here’s some examples of things like this working:

  1. Victor Zhdanov’s work single-handed (And successfuly!) lobbying the WHO to eradicate smallpox. (https://youtu.be/ll9myMeFU3g, starting at the 8:00 mark)
  2. Eleanor Roosevelt (FDR’s wife) played a massive role in the creation of the UN. https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/centres-institutes/bonavero-institute-human-rights/eleanor-roosevelt-and-universal-declaration-human
  3. and more

And here are some examples of efforts that have required broader support:

  1. Climate change prevention
  2. The abolition of slavery
  3. Most or all movements pertaining to increasing equality
  4. Nearly every election
  5. The protection of the ozone layer
  6. many if not most revolutions throughout history
  7. and more

(Note: this was all off the top of my head.)

Simple feedback: read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Politics/dp/1610391845

Think about politics in Darwinian terms: who survives the process?

I’m pretty sure that’s on my book list, but thanks anyways! I’d say I watched the equivelant of the “movie version” (which is missing some things; namely, it doesn'thave much on how easy it is to replace keys) https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs (Sorry if this comes off as passive aggressive; it isn't. It’s passive.)

I’ll edit the idea accordingly though.

Do you think the video is missing any other important points that the book doesn’t?

Of course! The detailed historical examples. No amount of abstract knowledge can substitute historical discussion.

In fact the academic version (the logic of political survival) is for me less interesting, because it is too much based on data analysis instead of cases.

Thanks! I’ll give it a read (or, more realistically, a listen if there’s an audiobook version.)

it seems boggling at first glance that this would work, but in summary, it would work like this: Sometimes, in an argument, one or more sides doesn’t care about reaching the RIGHT conclusion, they just care about it reaching a conclusion they approve of. This is often the difficulty with arguments.

However, when everyone is brought to the table and wants to reach the RIGHT conclusion, you find that the correct/RIGHT conclusion (seemingly) is arrived at much more often, is arrived at much faster, and as a bonus, the debate is much more respectful!

This project would basically bring world leaders to the table, where they would look for the RIGHT conclusion to major problems, which should lead to the correct/RIGHT conclusion (seemingly) is arrived at much more often, is arrived at much faster, and as a bonus, the debate is much more respectful!

There is sort of precedent for this: science used to be much more argumentative, and now, most of science is done in very intelligent ways, aimed at getting to the RIGHT answer, and not “their answer”. This led to many, if not most or all, scientific problems being solved*.

In addition, if you aim to be a powerful scientist, fighting for “your answer” makes it much harder than it is if you were fighting for the RIGHT answer. Similarly, if this project worked well, it would be much harder to gain power if you fought for “your values” than if you fought for the RIGHT values!

Maybe this would start its rollout on the most major world leaders first? And then, over time, more and more people get added to the program once we’re ready for them

One way to advertise this idea is that it reminds people of what the UN/UN charter was for, and that it is an improvement upon it.

If this worked, it would probably result in a major culture shift throughout most major institutions, which would help keep the program from falling apart, and would help incorporate new members.

Exact information on this is dependent on data on phycology and whatnot. If you know about that stuff, please let me know or add it here.

And a good culture (say, in the UN) can also help with this project's success. A bad one can result in this project being harder.

Also, if world leaders spend a lot of time surrounded by a particular culture (e.g., a month at some event), they might carry some of that culture over when they get back home, but also they re-assimilate into their home culture.

I will also note that the possibility of more morally misaligned actors might use the information that world leaders now agree on X moral values to their advantage, in order to do bad things. Perhaps this force is counteracted by more morally aligned people using such information to do good things!

A common strategy used to limit the effects of human error it to better account for it in models and whatnot, often by coming up with a value system that would make sense for any given set of decisions where some of them are due to human error. For example, in economics, one might say that a person ascribes inherent additional value to things that are on sale.

Another way is to try to make human error guide someone in a similar direction to logical decisions. For example, there is a major taboo against drug use in many areas, which supposedly decreases drug use when unnecessary.

More generally, a common strategy is to limit how much human error changes someone’s decisions, on average.

Quick note: (Note taken while I am tired, so medium “parse-ability”): this program should be able to adjust to new ideas such that [an idea on how this program can be improved] can be implemented as soon as possible, perhaps without having to do an event. This is tricky for some ideas (e.g., how the event could be more fun). This would cause ideas to be implemented sooner, and also there’s be less of a cost to do the program sooner, since you wouldn’t be “missing” most important ideas. One idea that MIGHT satisfy this is: Part of the UN normal chat space (slack, discord, or whatever they use, if anything) was a philosophy section on what philosophy to go by and why, so the discussion can continue 24/7, and ideas for improvement can get implemented for the next day (or sooner).

A world leader’s goals are probably adjustable one way or another. In the case where a world leader is committed to some values that depend on something (e.g., whatever is seen as “patriotic”, whatever their religion says (this only applies to some religions), changing those things changes their values. That might be very difficult for some value systems, but luckily [a commitment to the values of something that can easily change] has plenty of good logical arguments against them (https://youtu.be/wRHBwxC8b8I), which could be a better strategy to change someone’s mind if they have such a commitment that is difficult to change, but for which one can change if they have such a commitment.

If you know about psychology or world leaders, please let me know how true this might be. If it isn’t true, we’d have to work out how we might handle a world where only some people have their morals aligned. My first thought on this is that:

  1. a world where more world leaders have their values aligned is probably AT LEAST better than the current status quo.
  2. Over time, these people might be phased out, and maybe one strategy is to try to phase them out faster.

Maybe replacing the keys to power?

Supposedly, a more morally aligned global order might try to make itself more morally aligned. We only need this to work enough for it to sort itself out.

I imagine this would be implemented in a similar fashion ion to other UN programs when they started, but before that, we should work out key things that would change how or if the program should happen.

If anyone here knows any info that can help with this (e.g., Does any world leader have a commitment to their current values instead of their overall values?), please let me know in a comment, email, etc.

Message to any world leaders who aren’t willing to change their values: If you can successfully stop this from happening if you tried, then it wouldn’t work, so there’s no point in trying to stop me. It would be comparable to voting in an election determined by people’s opinions, not by how they voted (the equivalent of writing on a random piece of paper, “I vote like so: __”).

I say this because in any scenario where, even assuming every world leader who has completely unwavering moral values tried really hard to stop our program AND cooperated with one another, IF such an effort would potentially be successful, then our program would fail.

To expand on that: If your efforts make the difference between our program succeeding and failing or otherwise affecting its success, we would have a huge incentive to ensure that this program isn’t bad for you. This is because, if [you think it would be better for [your values] to try and prevent any given facet/part of our program], you would logically do so, and we don’t want that, so we will make sure [You are happy with each of those facets of the program].

Basically, you don’t need to stop our program. The threat that you might try to stop our program has the same effect.

If we can help you in a way that doesn't come at a cost to us (e.g., reschedule meetings so the time of the meetings work better for you), we will!

As an analogy, if you had the option to get rid of a country, then you don’t have to worry about them being bad for you, because they have a massive incentive to be good for you: not getting destroyed.

Here’s another analogy: Someone is making you food. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars to ensure that the person makes good food since you can simply throw the food away if the food does not taste good, and the person making the food already has a massive incentive to make food that tastes good to you: not getting the food thrown out.

All of this goes without saying, but saying it makes it clear.

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